The Health Care debate - The 1956 Free-for-all
(Health Care - as the rest of the world views us)
On January 29, 1956, NBC Radio, as part of their "New World" series ran a debate on the state of Healthcare in the world and asked the BBC to participate with their take on it. Representing all the interested parties were Aneurin Bevan, Member of Parliament and Labor Party Secretary for Health, Dr. Walter Elliot, Member of Parliament, E. A. Van Steenwyck, spokesman for Blue Cross and Milton Friedman, economist.
Right away, Bevan and Friedman jump into it. Friedman has a condescending tone that drives Bevan right up the wall and clearly there is no willingness on the U.S. to even consider a National Health plan.
Aneurin Bevan: “If you rely upon financial anxieties to keep people away, or to use your own words, ‘not to overuse the scarce services”, such anxieties do not exist for the rich. So they will have access to the services first of all. Is that equitable?
Milton Friedman : “Mister Bevan, I think you are confusing two very different problems. One, is the problem of the general distribution of income among people, which arises with the respect to food, clothes, housing and everything else. Medical care is a minor item . . .
Bevan: “A minor item??
Friedman: “Medical care accounts in your country as well as mine for no more than five percent of the total expenditure on consumption. It accounts in your country as in mine for less than the cost of tobacco plus alcohol”.
Walter Eliot: “Now wait a minute – I’m holding myself in with the greatest of difficulty. I was a doctor. I was on the gate. I compiled these waiting lists, and I can assure you that in a good many cases, people who urgently needed treatment weren’t getting it because there wasn’t a hospital accommodation there. Now, one of our difficulties was this very expansion of hospital accommodation. Do you think in America you can look after this enormously increased hospital accommodation which will admittedly be necessary . . .
Friedman: “We don’t rely on donations to run our hospitals. About 90 percent of all the money spent by our voluntary hospitals comes from patients.”
It more or less slides downhill from there. Needless to say, there is no compromise to be had in this debate, but it's interesting to hear just how enmeshed, even in 1956, the lobbies of big Insurance, Big Pharma and the AMA were with the question of Health for the U.S.
The only nice thing I can now say about Milton Friedman is that he did the world a favor and died.
Unfortunately, his assbackwards lunatic views (which masquerade as economics) continue to haunt us.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Join us and we together shall put economic pressure on the companies that give money to conservatives in both the Democratic and Republiklan party and we will get the progressive legislation that we demand.
Go here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liberaldemocrat...
A boycott of Whole Foods (I call it "Whole Paycheck") has been launched due to an article printed in The Wall Street Journal by the Whole Foods C.E.O. that is against Single-Payer and is for private insurance:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/13-0
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
That same sentiment now dominates this thread.
But IMO the most interesting members of the panel were from across the water, in particular Aneurin Bevan. That's precisely the sort of voice that's dreadfully unrepresented in the current 'debate' -- and on the idiot tube, entirely but for Rachel Maddow.
keeping the health care system and public transportation and food safety all in a dysfunctional state.
that health expenditures then was only 5%
I'll be content when I cease saying, "I'll be content when..."
Right about drugs, wrong about health care.
http://www.solarnavigator.net/mythology/mytho...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.evolutionnews.org/aldinism.jpg
http://www.ampere.cnrs.fr/parcourspedagogique...
http://www.elojodebuey.es/wp-content/rea-muer...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Milton Friedman's economic theories worked flawlessly.
Sadly, we do not live in a rational world, and mankind, a necessary component of any economic model, is deeply flawed.
Therefor, Friedman's theories become just as deeply flawed as the humanity tasked with implementing them.
Friedman's positions ARE correct. It's his perspective that is all wrong.
Oh. Please. What does THAT mean?
That his theories work perfectly in an alternate reality?
Yeah...and I can create perfect economic theories for a world where horses shit gold bricks, urine is the national currency and people are paid in water.
Friedman's so-called economic theories are based on his fundamentalist Christian views molded in a fine paste with his belief in totally laissez faire capitalism.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
There is a difference between positive and normative economics.
It's essentially the same as "ivory tower" ideation
Or the Platonic Ideal.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Think Chaos Theory
Think non-thinking.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Ooh. Fuzzy math.
Missed the point of my post completely.
Unbelievably, you summarized it quite well. I merely used less words....
You:
Friedman's so-called economic theories are based on his fundamentalist Christian views molded in a fine paste with his belief in totally laissez faire capitalism.
Me:
It's his perspective that is all wrong.
His perspective is wrong, because he was wrong.
His flowcharts, regression analysis and he and his compadre's LAFFERable curve have NO basis in reality.
The facts are that so-called supply driven economics is ultimately unstable, leads to short term high returns based on unsustainable levels of debt directed not toward building economic growth but on running up asset prices. It does nothing to improve the intrinsic value of those assets, and has led to all three of the major economic crashes in this country...in the 1880s, 1930s and now in the 2000s. Most of its growth is driven by holding "costs" down artificially...through reduced benefits and wages to employees, which has the completely opposite effect on an economy than is desired.
Demand driven economics actually is based on measurable, identifiable and well known behaviorable patterns of living breathing human beings in an economy, and strikes fully at addressing the needs and desires of the entire society which leads to job creation, asset and infrastructure BUILDING and long term sustainable growth.
Economics is not a science. It is an art, which means it requires much more creativity than the linear, closed world of most "modern day" economists tied to mathematical equations that can be twisted to create any end result they want.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
I was more economic in my wording.
No. You're trying to say that if everyone accepted Friedman's view that putting all the money in the fewest hands leads to economic growth, that all would have been fine.
Please, face facts. Friedman was a fraud. His style of economics does nothing but destroy economies...Latin America, Africa, Far East...and now America.
The trail of economic carnage he left in his wake was and is criminal.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
... it destroys societies.
For the society at large, Friedman and libertarian approaches in general, are catastrophic. But from a purely economical standpoint they work, it the sense that it makes the people who propose such policies very rich.
It is just that Friedman and his sycophants were too chickeshit to recognize that publicly, because well... it would make it kind of hard to get away with selling their BS theories. Also it is always a hoot to excuse the litany of excuses the proponents of libertarian approaches make in order to divert attention from the unmitigated disasters, their policies without exception lead to. Which is ironic, because their policies are based upon the concept of personal responsibility... and as usual, they are the first to find a escape goat.
this is what i get out of it. increase the uninsured population that will pay high prices. they go bankrupt. foreclose home no property tax collection. hurts immediate family and consequently community. it's NOW systemic with the numbers too large, it could be a reset for u.s. capitalism i'm not sure. maybe it's a perect storm with the financial crisis, gas prices,job losses and foreclosures. this i believe is going to be felt for awhile except for maybe those tucked away in higher end gated communties.
But from a purely economical standpoint they work, it the sense that it makes the people who propose such policies very rich.
This presupposes that everyone benefits when the rich benefit.
THAT is the flaw. That is the BULLSHIT. That is NOT economics, it is capitalism and capitalism is a POLITICAL theory...not an economic one.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
... I think the problem is that your definition of economics seems to include "the common good" as part of them. Which it does not, economics is a "neutral" concept based around the study of monetary/social organizations, policies, and theories.
There are some economic theories/proposals that do indeed target (or aim at benefitting) the common good. There are some that don't, which is where Milton Friedman's belong to.
So again, from a purely economic standpoint, Friedman's theories do indeed work as intended. Too bad that for them to work, the rest of us have to get screwed.
We all are expected to act, more or less, as automatons, with a singularity of purpose.
If we all acted with the same singularity of purpose, no one would be screwed.
But, then again, the world would be an extremely boring place.
No, I did not say that at all.
trying to cut each other's throats? Maybe I have a different definition of the term "rational" that you seem to have...
In the real world, people do not act like you expect them to.
Ya know, it's my fault for using less wordy expressions to state what I honestly believe.
Friedman's methods and models don't work because a lot of people are just self serving. And when they obtain power, influence and money, they tend to use that power, influence and money to continue to improve their position.
And they will often act irrationally to do this.
Selling toxic worthless bundles of mortgages that are designed to default is an example of people acting irrationally in an effort to enrich themselves further.
Friedman's (like Ayn Rand's) rational world, does not exist.
Most of his trite is heavily based around game theory, which stipulates just that: people are selfish assholes.
I dunno if you have even read any of his works.
What Friedman et al classify as "irrational," as a justification for the catastrophic failure of their crackpot theories, is basically intrinsic human behavior (compassion, for example). Which speaks volumes about the quality of humans Rand et al really were. Basically, Friedmans models breakdown as soon as people do not act like sociopaths. Again pointing at the severe deficit in basic humanity by the libertarian schools of thought.
great points
IF we lived in a vacuum, if humans were as predictable as computers, if we rational, if there was perfect knowledge between buyer/seller, etc. then friedman's policies might have been successful
the idea that economics is a hard science and that human behavior can be based on mathematical models was a fucking idiotic idea to begin with. now, we see what many warned us about when the neoliberal school took over as the main economic paradigm across the country, then globe.
so, being realistic, friedman's positions are NOT correct, as they exist in fantasy-land, and are not based on the real Homo economicus that actually walks the face of the earth.
had a dangerous social philosophy. I thank the stars he is dead and rotting in the earth.
we had already been bought and sold....
Cue the Kabuki....
it would be too much of a stretch to assert the possibility that Milton Friedman is responsible for the deaths of millions of people.
"The free market will fix itself" overthrew the governments of Chile, Argentina and Brazil with a "little" help from the CIA.
These countries became the testing grounds for Friedman's "theories."
People starved. People emigrated. People disappeared.
No final number is known regarding just how many people were tortured, killed or disappeared.
It's what the Chicago School capitalists been shoving down our throats for the last thirty-odd years.
Naomi Klein's book "The Shock Doctrine" educated a bonehead like me. It's a very good guide to modern and post modern history.
Milton Friedman should be exhumed, tried and hung by the neck until alive.
I have no strong feelings about it.
If you aren't sufficiently pissed off after reading Shock Doctrine.
Try these two.
http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-...
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundament...
They will provide you with more than enough information on the capitalist/fundamentalism unholy union that has been in full throttle to subvert this nation since its inception.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
After reading about what that rotten filthy bastard Milton Friedman and his merry band of fascist idiots at the Chicago school of Evil did in South America, I was sick.
That's because I realized it is the exact same thing the republicans have done to the American people.
Someday, I hope people will speak with the same disdain and contempt for Milton Friedman and the "free market is god fascists," as they do for Hitler and Musolini.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
"Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection."
Oops. I forgot. We must not be a member of The United Nations.... Since we certainly do not follow Article 25 of The U.N. Declaration On Human Rights....(or probably most of the other articles as well...)
What's that? What's that you say?? We ARE a member of the U.N.?!
Well, I'll be.....
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I don't think the rest of the world envisions us as being quite so slim and fit looking.
These people are not the GOP's base, they are what's left of the GOP.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/obam...
In 1956 health care was free for all?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Are you this funny in person?
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Actually people sometimes wonder why I rarely speak, smile or laugh, even when I make a stray and rare joke.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
And they simply HATE jokes like:
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 10:27
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
They're easy to understand and it's clear when you're supposed to laugh. That's why the ratings have dropped under Conan - his jokes are a little more difficult to understand for the older generation although knowing when to laugh is still quite obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1XmZ9_ckdw
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
would have been a great salesman becuse he talked so much. Actually, a great salesman is the good listener
Yeah...if you were white.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Without donations, our little community hospital would go belly-up and the next closest one is 90 miles away. The debt piling up due to un- and under-insured patients combined with sky-rocketing costs has the hospital operating in the red even with the donations.
Last week, the only "level 5" hospital in our area asked for a tiny millage increase in order to keep operating at full capacity.
Needless to say, the teabagging idiots all had their "stop the tax increase" signs out for weeks, and the millage lost by 800 votes.
If anyone ends up dying because they have to be flown elsewhere, I hope it's these stupid f*$&*^#/*# goddamned moronic cheap-ass teabaggers.
God I hate those stupid bastards!
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_treatment/...
The Swiftboating of Health Reform
Jonathan Cohn, The New Republic
The Attention Whore Harpie Hag of Hate has Ezekael Emanuel on her death list .
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/ann-...
And did that right wing white doughy pantload and all around conservative "won't go near a waterboard" coward Hannity just send out a dog whistle by referring to Rahm Emanuel as "dead fish"?
These wingnuts are not only anti-American they are a threat to Americans.
How is this for killer right wing health care logic?
Proof that abortions are in the health care bill, is that abortions are not in the health care bill.
Here is the clip:
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2520
A legend from 1956 has died.
Sorry O/T but this sucks:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/13/o...
I'm Boycotting NewsCorp! Heres what not to buy: http://www.cjr.org/resources/index.php?c=news...
On a side note, a conservative detail rep informed me that at a press conference in the last few days Obama suggested that "pediatricians" may opt to do more tonsillectomies to make money. He also stated that surgeons make $50,000 for a leg amputation for diabetes. I have googled these statements and find that this information appears to be correct. Maybe Obama DOES = Bush.
These are felony stupid statements. And extremely damaging to the cause.
"Someday somebody related to some of these sufferers, these victims, these collaterally damaged souls, may try to kill you. And I have to tell you, I think you’ll have it coming." - Christopher Cooper
i need to see/read the complete transcript. i recall those comments but not in entirety. i need quoted statements. i believe he may have been discussing the short-falls of fee for service model. not sure i agree with obama=bush but this may have been a mistake on his part not sure.
friedman i believe enjoyed the idea that health care demand is fairly inelastic. people aren't really price sensitive unless it's an elective procedure. if someone is sick they will pay whatever it takes to feel improved/better. the demographic has/is getting larger. because they will pay whatever when not covered by insurance prices continue to rise. of insurance companies have a business model to rid people with pre-existing condition(s) so they can become consumers for the inelastic model. the rises prices cause people to become UNDERinsured essentially taking more RISK to keep prices lower. because people get procedures done later(more expensive) and can't pay they file bankruptcy. this not only burden on the family but also the community. those loses are absorbed somehow they don't just disappear. that COST is shifted to the paying pool and/or TAX payers. our system has become vulnerable and people even if insured are more vulnerable. this is now a systemic problem with a lot of collateral damage the effects people and the communities. every game if you will has losers but the number of people losing or potentially could lose to great. with an economy based on CONsumerism (70%) we are vulnerable. we can't/will not be able to consume with rising health care cost and diluted/higher risk policies. although people personal savings is an issue. that can also get out of balance. if your saving your not buying no buying no economy. no economy wages stagnate or decrease. health care benefits from employers get reduced/taken away. that's why...president obama is doing this. health care reform is a economic necessity. the people concerned about their CHINA portfolio don't give a shxt. this has to change for the sake of our economy,culture and lifestyle. if we don't get serious change this will only widen the dangerous economic gap in this country.
Friedman view on healthcare - The poor can fly to Europe on the dividends of their investment portfolios in order to find cheaper healthcare.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
people supplement medicare. i would think it's similiar to what they do in canada and u.k. they supplement their government plan.
was a killer. Read Naomi Klein's THE SHOCK DOCTRINE. Friedman was asshole buddies with Pinochet and didn't ever get too upset about Pinochet's "disappearing" people and imprisoning/torturing people when he instituted shock doctrine Friedmanesque economics in Chile. The overflow reached Argentina and several other South American countries. It wasn't long until those nations were steeped in poverty. A few very rich at the top and the majority of the population sick, broke, hungry and destitute at the bottom.
Welcome to what's happening to the United States of America.
We have Friedman, his disciples, and the Republikkans to thank for this.
"By words the mind is winged." - Aristophanes
Friedman was one of the most despicable evil pieces of shit this country ever produced. His complete lack of humanity led him to create the "money is god syndrome," that the republican party still suffers from without exception.
He is in the same class with Cheney and Bush "the corrupt."
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
to hear the reaction of the other people involved in the discussion, when Friedman talked about resources being "wasted", especially after him talking about how the British had fewer doctors per capita than the U.S., first (if the health care was equivalent or nearly so, at that time, does anybody know?) that would mean that the British system was more efficient, and second you could almost hear the thought running through the British participants' heads, "Better that we use resources that we don't need to /em> and our citizens be healthy, than that we don't use the resources, and they're not healthy.", and Friedman is thinking "So someone had to get over the flu? You can save $5!".
He was a dick, even then.
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